The ARCH

3D Imports: RL Architects Meeting 2007-3-22 7pm session

 [19:03]  BobE Sands: so how was the turnout for the first meeting?

 [19:03]  Chip Poutine: the transcript is on keystone’s blog – seems like the turnout was pretty good 🙂

 [19:03]  Chip Poutine: both european and north american archi-types in attendence

[19:04]  BobE Sands: yes,, I’ve not pulled the transcript yet.

[19:04]  Chip Poutine: its a pretty interesting read

[19:04]  BobE Sands: I’ll get it while we wait..

 [19:05]  Parker McTeague: hello 🙂

[19:05]  Chip Poutine: Hi Parker!

 [19:05]  Threedee Shepherd: Hi all..

[19:06]  Kepster Cure: hello everybody

[19:06]  Threedee Shepherd: Parker, when you last met me I was Sidney. Multi-avatars

[19:06]  Parker McTeague: oh, nice to see you again

[19:06]  Threedee Shepherd: same here

[19:07]  BobE Sands: that’s a long transcript… I’ll read it later…

 [19:07]  You decline !! RL Architects in SL:  Archite, Architecture Island (73, 131, from A group member named Keystone Bouchard.

[19:07]  Chip Poutine: hehe yup, and notecards aren’t the easiest to read…

[19:07]  Parker McTeague: not at all

[19:07]  You: Hi everyone!

[19:08]  Parker McTeague: hi keystone!

[19:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: greetings

[19:08]  You: Wow, that was quite an entrance Kvasir

[19:08]  BobE Sands: Hi all

[19:08]  Chip Poutine: hey kvasir, arent you just the stealthy one?

[19:08]  Parker McTeague: hehe

[19:08]  You: is that a stealth bomber?

[19:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: thanks ever so…. this is the latest in herman miller stelth seating.

[19:08]  Forseti Svarog is Offline

[19:08]  Chip Poutine: looks like it could be painful

[19:08]  BobE Sands: LOL

[19:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: only for others..

[19:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: its quite…. sharp

[19:09]  Chip Poutine: hehe

[19:09]  Chip Poutine hums the theme from doctor zhivago….

[19:09]  Kvasir Olbracht: chip… your looking mavelous dallling.

[19:09]  Chip Poutine: why thankyou, i just had my eyes polished 🙂

[19:09]  You: so, this is the second meeting of the same topic – the first was this morning at 10:00 AM – intended to be a European friendly meeting, hosted by Alfredo Desideri

[19:10]  Kvasir Olbracht: hmmmmm you guys are doing that weird sl syncronized sitting…

[19:10]  You: the transcript of which can be found here: https://archsl.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/3d-import-tool-10am-session-complete/

[19:10]  Kvasir Olbracht: AND, they were very friendly europeans too..

[19:10]  You: indeed they were

 [19:10]  You: a few Canadians snuck in…but for the most part it was good clean fun =P

[19:11]  Chip Poutine: damn those canadians

 [19:11]  Chip Poutine shakes fist

[19:11]  Chip Poutine: 😀

[19:11]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahahaha

[19:11]  You: so, we’re chatting up the idea of a 3D import tool…

[19:11]  Kvasir Olbracht: i got into that site they recomended….. trying to find the link again… pretty cool.

[19:11]  You: Chip suggested this topic, and I think it came at a very timely moment in SL’s development

[19:12]  BobE Sands: yes I agree

[19:12]  You: there are more and more architects, designers and engineers coming to Second LIfe every day

[19:12]  BobE Sands: 😉

 [19:12]  BobE Sands: we will take over

[19:12]  You: you can stand in this very spot on most days, at almost any time of the day, and meet a new architect or designer looking around, exploring the island

[19:12]  Kvasir Olbracht: woot woot

[19:12]  Parker McTeague: that’s great!

[19:13]  You: and, invariably the first question RL Architects ask is ‘is there a way I can import my 3D models?’

[19:13]  You: to which i have to respond – not really…. not yet…

[19:13]  Threedee Shepherd: Other than prim limits, is there any theoretical reason an external “mesh” could not be translated into prims?

[19:13]  You: then proceed to convince them that the in-world building tools aren’t that bad, etc.

[19:14]  Kvasir Olbracht: http://www.opencroquet.org

[19:14]  Kvasir Olbracht: that was it..

[19:14]  BobE Sands: who has been working on the sketchup import?

[19:14]  You: so, there are 3 parts of this discussion – 1.) what will it take to build a 3D import tool? is it possible? 2.) How will it effect the economy of SL? 3.) How might it change the architectural character of this virtual world of ours

[19:14]  BobE Sands: soorry I’ll wait…

 [19:15]  Kvasir Olbracht: i have been working with the blender tool.

[19:15]  You: BobE – i think your question opens the first part well – who IS working on that tool? what other tools are there? what’s working, what’s not?

[19:15]  xKepster: Kepster welcome to Babbler. Have fun! Spread the love. Translation via yahoo! pipes.

[19:15]  xKepster: Babbler Ready.

[19:16]  Babbler: Kepster: Lingua parlate l’insieme ad italiano

[19:16]  Hank Hoodoo is Offline

[19:16]  Babbler: Kepster: Visiti questo Web page per aiuto

[19:16]  Biscuit Carroll is Offline

[19:16]  You: well, I’ve heard of a 3D import tool that allows Maya models to be imported…

 [19:16]  Aurelius Draken: Any artifact in SL is made of prims. A prim is, essentially, a mathematical equation. Multiple prims are multiple equations. There’s really no reason that multiple prims linked together couldn’t be optimized into a single equation, rendering it, in effect, a single prim. That alone would be a huge boon in SL, enabling us to have many many more artifacts.

[19:17]  xKepster: Ascoltare DA TRADURRE sulla scanalatura /0

 [19:17]  Parker McTeague: and ideally have prims subtract from each other to become one entity

[19:17]  Aurelius Draken: However, SL appears to be, on one level, prim-driven in terms of revenue to the Lindens. I think this will be the final barrier to optimizing prims, or bringing in a 3d artifact which was, in effect, the same thing.

[19:17]  Threedee Shepherd: Is it the case that prims limits are essentially a bandwidth limit mechanism

[19:17]  Parker McTeague: yes, the prim is like a unity of currency

[19:17]  BobE Sands: yes, but I want tools that match my business…Sketchup,revit, max

[19:18]  BobE Sands: dump them down yes..

[19:18]  BobE Sands: but allow my clients to walk our buildings.

[19:19]  Threedee Shepherd: this is not just an issue for architecture, any physical 3D model can have a place and use in SL

[19:19]  BobE Sands: i agrre though that most programs would product too big of prims objects.

[19:19]  Aurelius Draken: Old-timers have told me that the last 3 basic prims (torus, ring, and tube) are relative newcommers to SL, they weren’t always available. So the Lindens are not completely averse to increasing graphic/prim capability.

[19:19]  Parker McTeague: i remember ring and tube being new 🙂

[19:20]  You: also, before i forget, i’d like to take a poll of where everyone is from – if you’d rather not say, that’s fine – it just helps us plan these events

[19:20]  BobE Sands: this my buiness AV 😉 I’m from virginia

[19:20]  Parker McTeague: east coast u.s.

[19:20]  Aurelius Draken: Here here! A fellow Virginian! 🙂

[19:20]  Threedee Shepherd: Boulder Colorado and this is my business AV

[19:21]  Chip Poutine: i’m from alberta – same city as kvasir 😉

[19:21]  Kvasir Olbracht: upper slobovia….

[19:21]  Kvasir Olbracht: we have a new president.

[19:21]  Chip Poutine: me.

[19:21]  BobE Sands: I’ll send mike next teim.. my real fun av…

[19:21]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahahaha

 [19:22]  You: seems safe to say Kepster is Italian, no?

[19:22]  You: i didn’t mean to derail the conversation – sorry =/

 [19:22]  Chip Poutine: seems like the main challenge is the differentiation between meshes and prims

 [19:23]  You: so, the trouble with the Maya import is that it converts meshes into many,many,many prims – which makes it impractical to use

[19:23]  Kvasir Olbracht: no meshes… swe dont want people do do curved buildings.

[19:23]  Kvasir Olbracht: its just not modernist

[19:23]  BobE Sands: yes it is different tahn Max in that technique..

[19:23]  Chip Poutine: part of the challenge of creating in sl is taking a complex form that would be fairly easily accomplished by pushing vertices around and seeing how to break that down into prims

[19:23]  Threedee Shepherd: To me the issue goes beyond SL architecture itself. I want to use SL as a way to present 3D materials to clients in RL, because the SL engine is so good.

[19:23]  You: can you import an avatar shape/mesh from an outside program?

[19:23]  BobE Sands: I agree with Threedee

 [19:24]  BobE Sands: that is my goal.

[19:24]  You: mine too =)

[19:24]  BobE Sands: I personally like sketchup as the simpliest modeler…

[19:24]  Aurelius Draken: There’s also the question of scale. What happens if you import a simple disc that translates to 50m d

[19:24]  Kvasir Olbracht: POV ray or blender

[19:24]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahaha

[19:24]  Chip Poutine: roo reynolds had a proof of concept sketchup importer

[19:24]  BobE Sands: treu prim sizes have a limite here.

[19:24]  Chip Poutine: but it didn’t work on all prim types

 [19:25]  Threedee Shepherd: If I knew translation could be done and an idea of the programming cost, I would consider hiring someone to do it.

 [19:26]  BobE Sands: waht id the intire SL concept was used to creat an entireely differnt platform that could support direct imports?

[19:26]  You: what I wonder is, how much of this is really being purposely limited by Linden Lab – there is a wisdom in creating a level playing field – to get this world off the ground – so that everyone has to create within the same limitations

[19:26]  Parker McTeague: good point

[19:26]  Chip Poutine: the democratization of content creation has created the appetite for design

[19:26]  Aurelius Draken: The size limitation is arbitrarily imposed, primarily for the reason (as I understand it) of keeping people from imposing on their neighbors, presumming people are on a premium account with a 512m2 plot

[19:26]  BobE Sands: I’d licens there technology and host my own sites…

[19:26]  Chip Poutine: the fact that anybody can create content has also created the desire to own objects by those who do it well

[19:26]  Threedee Shepherd: They would probably be willing to make money by almost any means possible 🙂

[19:27]  Chip Poutine: BobE have you seen the opensim project?

[19:27]  BobE Sands: change an import fee by prim 😉

[19:27]  BobE Sands: same as they do textures..

[19:27]  Aurelius Draken: The Lindens have approved use of the so-called ‘huge prims’ or ‘mega-prims’ on the island estates, but not the mainland

[19:27]  You: Maybe Second LIfe isn’t the right platform for providing clients with a virtual tour of a design concept or a final model – even if it’s one of the only ways now –

[19:27]  Threedee Shepherd: what’s opensim

 [19:27]  BobE Sands: no I have not Chip

[19:27]  Chip Poutine: there used to be a tax on prims in the early days of SL – it caused a revolt

[19:28]  BobE Sands: good..

[19:28]  Chip Poutine: http://opensecondlife.org/wiki/OpenSim

[19:28]  Threedee Shepherd: are you sure about the mega-prims on estates, because tha’s a real option

[19:28]  Pam Renoir is Offline

[19:28]  You: but you can’t stretch mega prims

[19:28]  Cafmboss Vig: i wasn’t aaware there was a limit on using super-prims on mainl;and… we’ve nbeen using them for a while

[19:29]  Parker McTeague: mega prims are buggy and not supported, even if they don’t explicitly delete them

[19:29]  BobE Sands: thanks Chip.. I’ll read it later…

[19:29]  Cafmboss Vig: correct, Key, editing them is a pain

[19:29]  Catherine Omega is Online

[19:29]  Aurelius Draken: I’m certain

 [19:29]  Chip Poutine: i’ve got geoffrey gomez’s obj import to work, but its a lot of labor

[19:30]  You: you can edit mega-prims?

 [19:30]  Threedee Shepherd: me too on Gomez

[19:30]  Cafmboss Vig: i don’t think so

[19:30]  Aurelius Draken: To a limited extent, yes you can some of them. Some are… balky

[19:30]  Cafmboss Vig: only as far as textures, etc

[19:30]  Aurelius Draken: An architect who should be here, but is busy building at the moment :), has consulted with the Lindens on the mega-prim question. He’s using them extensively.

[19:31]  Threedee Shepherd: exactly what is a mega-prim, please?

[19:31]  You: but even if we could import – would it really make life easier for the creation of SL-specific content? Surely for architectural walk-throughs, it’s vital – but how would it change in-world development?

[19:31]  Cafmboss Vig: they are an aberation

[19:31]  Parker McTeague: a prim that breaks the 10meter limit

[19:31]  Kvasir Olbracht: they are evil

[19:31]  Threedee Shepherd: how?

[19:31]  BobE Sands: evil architecture what a concept…

[19:32]  Aurelius Draken: They work quite well for me, very stable [shrug]

 [19:32]  BobE Sands: how do you build one?

[19:32]  Aurelius Draken: Perhaps it means I’m a wicked fellow 🙂

[19:32]  Threedee Shepherd: thaks for the info given me on huge sims

[19:32]  Kvasir Olbracht: perhapse..

[19:32]  Aurelius Draken chuckles

[19:32]  Cafmboss Vig: yes, we have used them extensively on our large facility, used for extensively cutting down prim count

[19:32]  Parker McTeague: you can’t make them, you have to get copies from someone

[19:32]  You: do we really want to start building in CAD? CAD is lonely

[19:32]  Cafmboss Vig: anybody need a set?

[19:33]  Chip Poutine: i believe the get created using libsl

[19:33]  Parker McTeague: i’d like one if you have extras 🙂

[19:33]  BobE Sands: cad no….

[19:33]  Chip Poutine: i’ve yet to use megaprims

[19:33]  BobE Sands: BIm yes…

[19:33]  Kvasir Olbracht: i have tried…. i have had problems… it may have been the set that i was using.

[19:34]  Johnny Ming is Offline

[19:34]  BobE Sands: Key , we have derailed the conversation…

[19:34]  Chip Poutine: i think that’s the main potential of SL is not necessarily to tour clients but to build collaboratively

[19:34]  Threedee Shepherd: The issue came up this AM about whether it’s risky to invest in SL directed programming because Linden can change the system

[19:34]  Kvasir Olbracht: this is the problem with doing anything on anything…

[19:34]  Cafmboss Vig: Key, the benefit of starting w/ CAD is the amount of available stuff related to it in RL… we are very interested in pursuing FM apps here

[19:35]  Kvasir Olbracht: microsoft changes their mind… your flat..

[19:35]  Kvasir Olbracht: autodesk decided your virtical is of interest? blam.

[19:35]  Parker McTeague: limitation in sl is you can’t keep the old version running

[19:35]  Threedee Shepherd: exactly

[19:35]  Chip Poutine: i think its a good discussion becuase we’re seeing where cad import would fit in among megaprims and conventional content creation…

[19:35]  Kvasir Olbracht: FM in SL?

 [19:35]  You: so, would it be easier to bring avatars into BIMS instead of BIMS into SL?

[19:36]  BobE Sands: that may be true Key

 [19:36]  Cafmboss Vig: Kvasir… i am confident there is a market for it

[19:36]  Threedee Shepherd: Not unless one could readily adapt the SL physics engine, I suggest

[19:36]  BobE Sands: Revit has easy walk throughs but still not frreform…

[19:36]  Cafmboss Vig: more from an assets mgmgt standpoint

[19:36]  Chip Poutine: The trick is to marry the cad and visual elements in a more compelling way

[19:36]  You: why try to force-feed meshes into prims in a volatile platform when the quicker way might be to bring the avs into the BIM

[19:37]  Kvasir Olbracht: so the thought is that you have a virtualized building in SL (or something) and you allow folks to do the conventional FM work on it?

[19:37]  BobE Sands: not independent though like an AV currently has..

[19:37]  BobE Sands: thought…

[19:37]  Kvasir Olbracht: there are some pretty embedded FM applications… most of that content is report driven.

 [19:37]  Chip Poutine: mmm. polylines in sl…

[19:37]  Cafmboss Vig: FM – more to drive managing ones area assets and objects

[19:38]  BobE Sands: SL does not carry Intelligence in the objects like the BIm platforsm do.

[19:38]  BobE Sands: you need that for FM apps..

[19:38]  Cafmboss Vig: not true… you can add content to objects

[19:38]  Chip Poutine: and have them communicate with outside databases

[19:38]  Cafmboss Vig: corect

[19:38]  BobE Sands: yes I agree but not parameters…

[19:38]  Kvasir Olbracht: sure….. i agree.

 [19:39]  BobE Sands: okay may chip has the point

[19:39]  Chip Poutine: libsl is intended to intercept a whole raft of stuff between client and server…

[19:39]  BobE Sands: it ties to an external database.

[19:39]  Cafmboss Vig: Key, you called this mtg, i think… perhaps this FM discussion would be better a dif time, so we can get back to your original topic

[19:39]  You: i think its relavent

[19:39]  Threedee Shepherd: I do immersive 3D-type virtual reality in RL, and I can report that there is not good software for readily manipulating avatars in a scene, so avs in BIM may be difficult to do well

[19:40]  Chip Poutine: a ubiquitous cad import would certainly open up the opportunities for FM apps in SL though…

[19:40]  Cafmboss Vig: i agree

 [19:40]  Chip Poutine: the best we’ve come to is working in cad simultaneously over a terminal server/web ex

[19:40]  Chip Poutine: where ppl can take turns controlling the mouse

[19:41]  Chip Poutine: certainly not visual, certainly not realtime

[19:41]  Nyx Ivory is Offline

[19:41]  Chip Poutine: seems like some of the game engines lend themselves to cad import like oblivion

 [19:42]  Multi Gadget v1.51.0: Piotrek Hienrichs

[19:43]  Parker McTeague: hi piotrek

[19:43]  Chip Poutine: the thing about realtime arch viz in SL is that its here now and it works, such as it is.

[19:43]  Scope Cleaver is Online

[19:43]  Piotrek Hienrichs: Hi everyone

[19:43]  Cafmboss Vig: hi Pio

[19:43]  Chip Poutine: but for many its just not worth the time investment reproducing models they’ve already created using pro level offline tools

[19:43]  You: yes Chip, that’s a great point

[19:44]  Kvasir Olbracht: exaclty chip

[19:44]  Chip Poutine: i’ve seen a realtime 3d plugin for max

[19:44]  Threedee Shepherd: the KEY point, i think

[19:44]  Chip Poutine: but looked really expensive

[19:44]  You: and there is a scale thing – smaller projects are not so bad in SL, but larger projects are more of a challenge (though still do-able in my opion)

[19:44]  Cafmboss Vig: and Max isn’t cheap either

[19:44]  Chip Poutine: and again, lacks the context of a ‘world’ and the community of avatars within

[19:44]  Parker McTeague: yes, i think it’s more about redundancy than for building for sl specifically

 [19:44]  Kvasir Olbracht: no fuzzies either.

[19:45]  Piotrek Hienrichs: how does sketchup work in SL?

[19:45]  Scope Cleaver: Hi guys 🙂

[19:45]  Parker McTeague: i agree keystone, 3d tools will have a much bigger impact on large builds, small builds still come up against prim limits and won’t benefit as much

[19:45]  Kvasir Olbracht: SCOPE!!

[19:45]  You: Scope!

[19:45]  Piotrek Hienrichs: or translate to SL

[19:45]  Parker McTeague: hi scope

[19:45]  Chip Poutine: hiya scope!

[19:45]  Threedee Shepherd: hi scope

[19:45]  Kvasir Olbracht: this is just like that sitcom of the bar…

[19:45]  Kvasir Olbracht: NORM!!

[19:45]  Scope Cleaver: lol

[19:45]  Chip Poutine: Kvasir!

[19:46]  Kvasir Olbracht: not that your like that at all scope….

[19:46]  Scope Cleaver: Sorry to be late, I just woke up

[19:46]  Kvasir Olbracht: realy…

[19:46]  Cafmboss Vig: burp… hiya scope

[19:46]  dstmars Zuhrah is Online

[19:46]  Scope Cleaver: Was there any improvement to the import tool since this morning? 😛

[19:46]  Chip Poutine: http://eightbar.co.uk/2006/09/29/google-sketchup-second-life-export/

[19:47]  Chip Poutine: its been around for a while

 [19:47]  Chip Poutine: yeah, scope – we’ve decided to bring avatars into cad instead of the other way around 🙂

[19:47]  Chip Poutine: er, bim, sorry

[19:47]  Scope Cleaver: Yea thats a very sensible point Chip

[19:47]  Chip Poutine: sounds like a cleaning product to me

[19:47]  Scope Cleaver: If you can’t bring the moon to the men….

[19:48]  Chip Poutine: stage a moon landing in the desert hehe

[19:48]  Scope Cleaver: lmao something like that

[19:48]  Kvasir Olbracht: thats not such a bad idea for basic geometry chip..

[19:48]  Chip Poutine: it demands the modeller to think about sketchup in terms of prims, though

[19:49]  Parker McTeague: then at that point you might as well build in sl

[19:49]  Chip Poutine: and sketchup has this nasty tendency to weld everything together if it isn’t separated out as components

[19:49]  Kvasir Olbracht: thats true too

[19:49]  Chip Poutine: exactly parker

[19:49]  Chip Poutine: same with the blender tool

[19:49]  You: can you import avatar meshes?

[19:49]  You: maybe we just need to make our buildings out of avatars, since they’re meshes…

[19:50]  BobE Sands: lol

[19:50]  Chip Poutine: like in the game engine space…

[19:50]  ag Sodwind is Online

[19:50]  Chip Poutine: there were levels and there were models

[19:50]  Chip Poutine: i wanted to make the level out of a model

[19:50]  Kvasir Olbracht: turn any building into a single flat jpeg…

[19:50]  Chip Poutine: it didn’t seem to like that

[19:50]  You: i still think we could double our land if we all agreed to make our avs half-size, but we don’t need to get into that now! heheheh

[19:50]  Parker McTeague: 🙂

[19:50]  Kvasir Olbracht: i still love that idea Key!!!

 [19:50]  Chip Poutine: tinies, man. the only way to go.

[19:51]  Kvasir Olbracht: then i could finaly fit inside this thing!!!!

[19:51]  You: its all relative! our av sizes are arbitrary

[19:51]  Chip Poutine: we’re all like 7 feet tall be default?

[19:51]  Chip Poutine: *by

[19:51]  You: its just a Linden Lab conspiracy to get us to buy all this land –

[19:51]  Kvasir Olbracht: well your like that in RL too chip… so….

 [19:51]  Chip Poutine: hehe and just as bald

[19:52]  Kvasir Olbracht: baldness is a sign of varility in many cultures..

[19:52]  BobE Sands: tough crowd..

[19:52]  Threedee Shepherd: Can I ask again, re: importing what is likely to be possible?

[19:52]  Kvasir Olbracht: lust like riding an F117a

 [19:53]  Kvasir Olbracht: its totaly possible… ist being done… the problem is the limitations that prims have.

[19:53]  Piotrek Hienrichs: What language are prim written in?

[19:53]  Kvasir Olbracht: suckstobeyou language..

[19:53]  RJ Kikuchiyo: helo all sorry for lateness

[19:54]  Parker McTeague: hi rj

[19:54]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahahaah…

[19:54]  Kvasir Olbracht: brb…. coffie stop

[19:54]  Kvasir Olbracht: hold that though.

 [19:55]  RJ Kikuchiyo: i thought the GL engine was a component – vectors and such

[19:55]  You: I still wonder if there could be a way to build an SL-tangent world, where you can import and ‘bake’ a 3D model before avs can enter – just like the way they make games – they’ve been using 3D Studio to build games for a while now…

 [19:56]  Chip Poutine: which would still leave it a couple of generations behind the current game engine tech.

[19:56]  Parker McTeague: removes some of the immediacy and interaction of building in sl

[19:56]  You: right

[19:56]  RJ Kikuchiyo: i was going to ask – is there a consensus on the import tools? ‘dont use em’?

[19:57]  You: there aren’t any fluid and automatic import tools RJ

[19:57]  Chip Poutine: the consensus is that there doesn’t seem to be an efficient way to do it versus just modeling in sl

[19:57]  Chip Poutine: but part of this discussion is to think about if and when there *might be* one.

[19:57]  RJ Kikuchiyo: ok – that wuz my thinkin

[19:57]  Chip Poutine: what the implications would be

[19:57]  Kvasir Olbracht: back.. sorry

[19:57]  Cafmboss Vig: plus, all rl tools don’t care about number of things… whereas sl cares about prims, so efficiency tool would be best way to go

[19:58]  Aurelius Draken: At some point, the Lindens need to be involved in the discussion.

[19:58]  Chip Poutine: right

[19:58]  RJ Kikuchiyo: a boolean would be an excellent place to start being compatible with those other programs

[19:58]  Chip Poutine: i think model import woudn’t usurp in-world creations

[19:58]  You: I think the Lindens are accutely aware of this situation

[19:58]  Chip Poutine: the numbers bear that out

 [19:58]  You: true Chip

[19:58]  RJ Kikuchiyo: *boolean option

[19:59]  Chip Poutine: activeworlds isn’t as successful from what i know of it because it lacks in world content creation – mesh import is the only mechanism

[19:59]  Aurelius Draken: It’s all well and good for us to discuss this, but ‘they are the gatekeepers, they hold all the keys’

[19:59]  Cafmboss Vig: yeah, but LL has some bigger issues to deal with like performance and keeping their hw alive

[19:59]  You: not entirely Aurelius

[19:59]  You: to a certain degree they do, but the scripts that have been deeveloped so far are indie scripters

[20:00]  Seifert Surface is Online

[20:00]  Chip Poutine: we’ve already seen several examples of initiatives to move data from diff’t packages – blender, maya, sketchup, etc – exactly, ppl who have figured out how to translate the language of meshes into the language of prims

[20:00]  Chip Poutine: which if you throw your client into wireframe or export back to opengl are just mesh surfaces at the client level

[20:01]  Chip Poutine: prims are an intermediary

[20:01]  Chip Poutine: a way of thinking about geometry

[20:01]  Parker McTeague: and a way to send data to the client

[20:01]  Piotrek Hienrichs: Since Autodesk is here in SL and Google has bought Sketchup is there movement from those parties to do export tools?

[20:01]  BobE Sands: not hta I have heard

[20:02]  Chip Poutine: its all been independent

[20:02]  Chip Poutine: but autodesk has featured one of the indies on their island

[20:02]  BobE Sands: Yes Autodesk has been active…

[20:02]  Piotrek Hienrichs: It would seam to me that if LL wont do it these others should be approached

[20:02]  Aurelius Draken: Very interesting

[20:03]  Cafmboss Vig: yeah, but so many little things from autodesk over its history were indie developments… i.e MAC port of Autocad

[20:03]  Chip Poutine: seems the lack of activity on Autodesk’s part almost suggests they’re ready to do an endrun on all of this and just come up with their own tool.

[20:03]  You: Autodesk is looking at SL carefully – they’ve had an island since last November, and are working on tools – but they’re still researching – again, the prim limits play a huge part, so in some ways, there’s only so much they can do – but there is still room for helpful tools.

[20:03]  Chip Poutine: autocad on mac 😛

[20:03]  RJ Kikuchiyo: eems like the code was based on some prior iteration – is it possible to get from a linden the historic perspective and reverse-engineer this hypothetical bridge?

[20:03]  Chip Poutine: too bad they just gave up on it.

[20:03]  BobE Sands: Revit will run on a MAC

[20:04]  Kvasir Olbracht: i dont understand why autodesk would do anyting for SL…. they have the juice to do their own SL….

[20:04]  Piotrek Hienrichs: Autodesk is infamous for buying what works

[20:04]  Cafmboss Vig: AutoCAD 11 was ported to MAC over a weekend

[20:04]  Chip Poutine: but they don’t have the mindshare kvasir

[20:04]  Cafmboss Vig: way back then

[20:04]  You: If anyone wants to see Autodesk Island, I’ll invite you to the group and give a Landmark – its still closed to the public for now

[20:04]  Chip Poutine: they’d tried to do cyberspace before and failed

[20:04]  Kvasir Olbracht: historicalyl autodesk tends to move towards proprietory things that rich architects pay for

[20:04]  Piotrek Hienrichs: True

[20:04]  BobE Sands: ha…

[20:04]  BobE Sands: treu

[20:04]  BobE Sands: I pay them LOTS of $

[20:05]  Kvasir Olbracht: they are just feeling SL up..

[20:05]  BobE Sands: I bet they will buy it.

[20:05]  Cafmboss Vig: possible

[20:05]  Cafmboss Vig: but then will it grow?

[20:05]  RJ Kikuchiyo: LL has been positioning for a buyout for some time

[20:05]  Chip Poutine: too many flying penises for that X)

[20:05]  Piotrek Hienrichs: If autodesk likes it it may be a part of Buzzsaw soon

[20:05]  Cafmboss Vig: haha

[20:05]  BobE Sands: please not buzzsaw…

[20:06]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahaha…

[20:06]  RJ Kikuchiyo accepted your inventory offer.

[20:06]  BobE Sands: it will cost us too much…

[20:06]  Kvasir Olbracht: buzzsaw uber alis

[20:06]  Cafmboss Vig: need a prim viewer then

[20:06]  Piotrek Hienrichs: not my choice either

 [20:06]  Chip Poutine: all of autodesks internet collaboration efforts seem to have failed on one level or another

[20:06]  Threedee Shepherd: SL MUST eventually be bought out (or fail) because that’s the way Venture Capitalists get their money back!

[20:06]  Kvasir Olbracht: they will say here for a subscription fee of 2500 per year, with usage fees, you can bring all your buildings into a virtualized environment.

[20:06]  BobE Sands: Autodesk’s DWF format would actually be a great thing to import if we could figure out how..

[20:06]  Chip Poutine: architectural studio was supposed to be this amazing shared drawing board – it flopped

[20:07]  Kvasir Olbracht: stairs still wont work,, but they will have a new version so soon.

[20:07]  Cafmboss Vig: Arch studio was a great product, but poorly marketed

[20:07]  You: Clear ink built a 2D DWF import tool

 [20:07]  Kvasir Olbracht: pay up kids… but make sure you bend over while you sign the checks…

[20:07]  You: for Autodesk

[20:07]  RJ Kikuchiyo: DWF is old timey – independent development lines

[20:07]  Piotrek Hienrichs: By the way if anyone cares – Tennessee is beating Ohio state by 17 at the half

[20:07]  BobE Sands: DWF is quite goo now…

[20:08]  BobE Sands: you should see it…

[20:08]  RJ Kikuchiyo: good but based in the historic no?

[20:08]  Piotrek Hienrichs: DWf may be a good interim option if it will work

[20:08]  BobE Sands: we use it all the time in lieu of PDFs

[20:08]  BobE Sands: it carries more intellegence…

[20:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: on a 10m prim

[20:08]  Cafmboss Vig: yes, but dwf is still vector format

[20:08]  You: it also updates dynamically – using Autodesk’s Freewheel

[20:08]  You: DWF on a prim

[20:08]  Kvasir Olbracht: oh no… dont get me started on intelligence.

[20:09]  Kvasir Olbracht: ahahahahaha

[20:09]  BobE Sands: true but it might be a place to start..

[20:09]  Chip Poutine: hehe – i read the transcript from this morning kvasir 😉

[20:09]  Piotrek Hienrichs: Would Autocadd solid models work better?

[20:09]  Kvasir Olbracht: breathing deeply..

[20:09]  You have offered friendship to RJ Kikuchiyo

[20:09]  Cafmboss Vig: yes, solids would be better, more prim like, except for Bolean operations

[20:09]  Chip Poutine: there’s also imports based on swf and powerpoint of all things in the works

[20:10]  BobE Sands: I don’t use them for much of anything…

 [20:10]  Chip Poutine: sorry, svg

[20:10]  Chip Poutine: not swf

 [20:10]  RJ Kikuchiyo: the first thing I asked myself in game was ‘where are the booleans’?

[20:10]  BobE Sands: sorry guys.. got to go…

[20:10]  BobE Sands: I’ll read the rest…

[20:10]  Parker McTeague: take care bobe

[20:10]  Cafmboss Vig: haha, me too rj

[20:10]  Chip Poutine: nice chatting BobE

[20:11]  You: Seeya BobE

[20:11]  Aurelius Draken: Take it easy BobE

[20:11]  Cafmboss Vig: sorry, all, i have another appt, thanks for the chat, very informative

[20:11]  You: your stealth chair is moving Kvasir….is it a ‘smart’ chair?

[20:11]  Kvasir Olbracht: yes…. it is intelligent too..

[20:12]  Kvasir Olbracht: smart and intelligent..

[20:12]  Kvasir Olbracht: just like autocad..

[20:12]  Kvasir Olbracht: and many Interior designers..

[20:12]  Aurelius Draken: I wish you well, Vig

[20:13]  You: uh oh….i think i froze up

[20:13]  Kvasir Olbracht: oh my…. i hope i didnt insult some interior designers..

[20:13]  Kvasir Olbracht: engineers then.

[20:13]  Kvasir Olbracht: 😉

[20:14]  You: so, it seems this conversation is wrapping up? anyone else have any thoughts about 3D imports? or lack thereof…

[20:15]  Chip Poutine: seems like we’re headed for the makers of pro level tools developing their own realtime solutions

[20:15]  Threedee Shepherd: I’m willing to pay more than L$ if that would make them happen.

[20:15]  You: one way or another, I think virtual spaces is going to transform architecture in a huge way – no matter how the convergence goes down – its going to have a huge impact on the way we work

[20:15]  RJ Kikuchiyo: if I could say that the simplest tools in 3D before had leaps and bounds ahead of SL client

[20:15]  Chip Poutine: here in sl the built in tools might just prevail because of raw numbers and the limitations in terms of size/number of prims

[20:16]  Piotrek Hienrichs: I think the conversion tools will be necessary to make it worthwhile to produce in both worlds

 [20:16]  Chip Poutine: raw number of people with access/knowledge of cad tools

[20:16]  Chip Poutine: i’m still happy to bring clients here and built together

[20:16]  You: agreed Chip

[20:16]  Chip Poutine: realism isn’t always the goal

[20:16]  Chip Poutine: of course.

[20:17]  Threedee Shepherd: An aside, have you ever noticed that SL stars in the sky don’t move?

[20:17]  Kvasir Olbracht: muahahaha

[20:17]  Chip Poutine: but you can move the sun with your mouse!

[20:18]  You have offered friendship to Aurelius Draken

[20:18]  Kvasir Olbracht: there are just so many wonderous things.

[20:18]  RJ Kikuchiyo: realism wasnt the goal when the game engine was adapted for content creation

[20:19]  Piotrek Hienrichs: realism doesn’t need to be the goal, just an option

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: but realism also seems to be the expectation when one is given a chance to explore in ‘real’ time…

[20:19]  RJ Kikuchiyo: this is coming from me who doesnt do anything but real in SL… kinda weird

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: its why sketchup models are so popular

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: fast to produce

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: loos

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: loose

[20:19]  Chip Poutine: more open to possibilities

[20:20]  Chip Poutine: and fun to navigate via the tabs

[20:20]  Piotrek Hienrichs: The possibilities for unreal inspire the real

[20:20]  Chip Poutine: the walk mode in sketchup sucks.

[20:20]  RJ Kikuchiyo: has there been a raytrace application that didnt come with a burden – this is the thinking I come to when I ask ‘why didnt LL do…”

[20:20]  You: what about export tools? Chip, you’ve explored that?

[20:20]  Chip Poutine: yes

[20:20]  Chip Poutine: i’ve used glintercept to take models out of sl into .obj format which i then import in formz

[20:21]  Parker McTeague: i’m heading off, thanks for the discussion!

[20:21]  saraeliza Maine: By the way I wasn’t offended from before 🙂 Just had stepped away…

[20:21]  Chip Poutine: or could be imported into any other prog

[20:21]  Chip Poutine: ‘nite parker

[20:21]  You: good night Parker! Thanks for coming =)

[20:21]  Parker McTeague: good night!

[20:21]  Piotrek Hienrichs: bye parker

[20:21]  Threedee Shepherd: nite parker

[20:21]  RJ Kikuchiyo: chip:

[20:21]  RJ Kikuchiyo: whas there a trend in the exported models?

[20:22]  RJ Kikuchiyo: as in did they adhere to a simplicity

[20:22]  You: so, I’ve talked to quite a few architects who are starting to prefer doing schematic design in SL – because they can collaborate, and get feedback from peers/clients virtually –

[20:22]  You: there might be something to that

[20:22]  Chip Poutine: the exported models are a triangulated mess

[20:23]  saraeliza Maine: I would love to learn how to do that… that is why I’ve been coming to these meetings.

[20:23]  Aurelius Draken: SL lends itself well to that, but the stylistic side has to be clearly communicated

[20:23]  Chip Poutine: probably not unlike a max model

[20:23]  Kvasir Olbracht: well kids… i have to be off…. there must be some greeving to do…

[20:23]  Kvasir Olbracht: nice to see you all again….

[20:23]  Scope Cleaver: Take care 🙂

[20:23]  Threedee Shepherd: nite

[20:23]  Chip Poutine: ‘nite kvasir

[20:23]  saraeliza Maine: Can someone save this chat for us again?

[20:23]  Aurelius Draken: G’nite, Kvasir

[20:24]  Threedee Shepherd: nite

[20:24]  Kvasir Olbracht: nite all

[20:24]  You: good night!

[20:24]  RJ Kikuchiyo: id love a transcript of what I missed

[20:25]  RJ Kikuchiyo: Inworld developments: mirrors in firstlook? was it only just me who missed that?

[20:26]  You: ? i missed that too

[20:26]  saraeliza Maine: No, I missed it too… would love a transcript. 🙂

 [20:26]  You: i’ll post it to the blog

[20:26]  You: http://www.archsl.wordpress.com

[20:26]  RJ Kikuchiyo: tx Keystone

[20:26]  saraeliza Maine: Thanks so much

[20:26]  Chip Poutine: there was a mirror rj

[20:26]  Threedee Shepherd: thanks

[20:26]  Chip Poutine: a little off, though

[20:26]  You: this morning’s transcript is there too

[20:26]  RJ Kikuchiyo: i heard it was out for ONLY one revision then pulled

[20:27]  Chip Poutine: the reflection map was very chunky and distorted

[20:27]  RJ Kikuchiyo: i can imagine the load

[20:27]  RJ Kikuchiyo: if it was at all server side

[20:27]  Chip Poutine: i don’t recall – there were a few blog posts about it…

[20:28]  Scope Cleaver: Which one of you are using first look on daily basis?

[20:28]  RJ Kikuchiyo: on point with the earlier thread – i think LL has lost in development what it has gained in stability management

[20:29]  Threedee Shepherd: If I am using SL as a delivery tool in RL, stability MATTERS

[20:30]  RJ Kikuchiyo: i was being slightly sarcastic about that stability – its a bigger job than ever – do you think it has eclipsed the development? different teams?

[20:30]  Piotrek Hienrichs: If you are using SL in RL thus the NEED for a conversion tool

[20:31]  RJ Kikuchiyo: poitrek and threedee: both well taken points: do you use them as such now? SL tools as RL platform?

[20:32]  Threedee Shepherd: I’m starting to develop the idea, in conjunction with true, immersive 3d.

[20:32]  Piotrek Hienrichs: Not yet – just experimenting in SL

[20:32]  Piotrek Hienrichs: I fht econversion was easy I would without a doubt

[20:33]  You: there are about 6 architects using SL as a professional tool now – to the best of my knowledge

[20:34]  You: some prefer to be anonymous though =/

[20:34]  RJ Kikuchiyo: Keystone – does that mean that autodesk has a ‘use at your own risk’ statement in TOS? or EULA?

[20:34]  Chip Poutine: some seem to prefer the idea of a private label experience

[20:34]  saraeliza Maine: How are the clients responding to the walk throughs in SL?

[20:34]  You: for all of our frustration with the in-world building tools, the value of a virtual model of a RL design is tremendous – unprecedented – totally changes the game

[20:35]  Chip Poutine: i just talked to a reporter about that very thing this afternoon – it blew her mind.

[20:35]  Chip Poutine has been given his two minute warning by the better half

[20:35]  You: the architects find their way here on their own – it isn’t any kind of offial Autodesk program or anything

[20:35]  saraeliza Maine: I haven’t learned how to build with SL tools yet… I was hoping that we could import Sketchup, CAd models soon.

[20:36]  Chip Poutine: its pretty easy, sara 🙂

[20:36]  saraeliza Maine: SL has been listed in many magazines… it has been advertised quite a bit for designers.

[20:36]  saraeliza Maine: I should just go ahead and try it then.

[20:36]  You: clients are blown away by the virtual tours – invariably – the coolness factor, and the fact that they can use the model to test paint colors, material types/finishes – landscaping – furniture layouts – etc. – tends to excite them

[20:36]  Chip Poutine: i’d jump right in 🙂

[20:36]  Piotrek Hienrichs: I originally heard about SL on one of the morning shows

[20:36]  Chip Poutine: that’s how we all did it

[20:37]  Chip Poutine: but there’s always more to learn 😉

[20:37]  Chip Poutine: well i need to head out – thanks for the insights everyone

[20:37]  Threedee Shepherd: I have a need to demo the real Globe Theater in SL. It exists in 3D format on the Web. I would like NOT to have to rebuild it for SL.

[20:37]  Chip Poutine: its great to meet with all of you!

[20:37]  RJ Kikuchiyo: thanks chip – gnite

[20:37]  saraeliza Maine: Thanks! 🙂

[20:37]  Piotrek Hienrichs: nite chip

[20:37]  Threedee Shepherd: thanks for your insights

[20:37]  Scope Cleaver: Later Chip

[20:37]  You: what better way to show a design concept to a client than to spend a few hours building a study model in SL then inviting them in… “lets sit down in the living room and see what the view might be like…”

[20:37]  You: later Chip!

 

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