[13:50] Christopher Prudhomme: Have you all had a chance to read the note Keystone sent out?
[13:51] Mater Rhode: yes
[13:51] Scope Cleaver: Looking for it.
[13:52] You: i’ve got the notecard handy if anyone needs it
[13:53] Chip Poutine: i need a copy too
[13:53] KK Jewell accepted your inventory offer.
[13:53] Christopher Prudhomme: Scope, I have a notecard if you want it
[13:53] Chip Poutine accepted your inventory offer.
[13:53] Chip Poutine: ty
[13:53] Scope Cleaver: Yes please thanks.
[13:53] Mater Rhode: I am at RL work But I can sure listen and inject once in a while
[13:53] Mater Rhode accepted your inventory offer.
[13:53] You: cool – glad you’re here Mater
[13:53] You: thanks for coming
[13:54] Christopher Prudhomme: Keystone, Im am interested if there as been any movement towards getting a wiki setup.
[13:55] Christopher Prudhomme: I think it would be a great tool publishing tutorials
[13:56] Chip Poutine: Christopher the slfoundations.org wiki has been up for a while now, however to this point it has merely provided outbound links to other tutorials rather than original materials
[13:56] Chip Poutine: but the wiki is geared toward providing technical help to new users specifically dealing with the building tools
[13:57] Chip Poutine: as well as tips to more experienced users
[13:59] Christopher Prudhomme: Chip, I will check that out. Have you seen RL architecture related content there?
[13:59] Theory Shaw: once again trying to get the voice to coooperate.
[13:59] Chip Poutine: Nothing RL specific. The wiki was started by Keystone and myself.
[13:59] Chip Poutine: But I think RL information would be excellent
[14:00] You: Hi Adiatha and Mason!
[14:00] You: Welcome
[14:00] Adiatha Bishop: Hi all
[14:00] Mason Kingsford: hello 🙂
[14:01] Mason Kingsford: thanks 🙂
[14:01] Christopher Prudhomme: Hello everyone, thanks for comming
[14:01] Christopher Prudhomme: I will get started in a minute
[14:02] Fraser Fonda: oh thanks keystone
[14:02] Designer Dingson: hi all 🙂
[14:02] Christopher Prudhomme: Keystone, will you be posting a transcript?
[14:02] Scope Cleaver: / Greetings
[14:02] Chip Poutine: Hi Fraser, Designer 🙂
[14:02] You: I will
[14:03] Sofie Burton: hello everybody.
[14:03] Christopher Prudhomme: great, I guess i will get started
[14:03] You: i always appreciate others saving trasncripts as well – just in case
[14:03] Fraser Fonda: 🙂 hi scope hello all
[14:03] KK Jewell: Hi Fraser
[14:03] Fraser Fonda: oh Hi KK
[14:03] Theory Shaw: i usually save them… so don’t say anyhthing you’ll regret. 😉
[14:04] Christopher Prudhomme: Hello, My RL name is Chris Rowe and as Keystone posted, I am an educational technology masters student and work for The Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems in Austin TX as a technology and education consultant.
[14:05] Christopher Prudhomme: I am not an architect, but I am very interested in using SL to help people visualize real and simulated spaces. In my search to learn how to build RL spaces in SL I found that most tutorials about building were not geared towards this goal. Many deal with building objects and not buildings.
[14:06] Christopher Prudhomme: So, as part of my school work I have been researching this idea
[14:06] Christopher Prudhomme: I have created a simple tutorial that starts by setting up a SL account and starts them using the building tools right away. http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dpxtjb9_170dndqzn&invite=hcmzhnk (You should be able to log in and edit this if you have a Google account)
[14:06] Christopher Prudhomme: Have any of you had a chance to look at it?
[14:07] Christopher Prudhomme: This is intended for someone who has never used SL before but wants to get started building ASAP
[14:07] You: yes
[14:07] KK Jewell: Yes just looked at it
[14:08] Christopher Prudhomme: What I was hoping to do here was talk about this idea, to see what people thought and get your ideas on what should be included in this kind of tutorial
[14:09] Christopher Prudhomme: In my experience, there are some unique ways that architects are using SL which are different than other builders
[14:09] Theory Shaw: I think video are a potent way to teach people the beginning steps of building something in SL
[14:10] Theory Shaw: i’ve noticed ‘a lot’ of people graze over with step by step directions
[14:10] Scope Cleaver: Theory: Yes, I had a talk with a client this morning about audio capsules as well.
[14:10] Christopher Prudhomme: I have created some rough videos that go with the text but have not published them yet
[14:10] Scope Cleaver: streamed 24/7 where you can drop in at any point and pickup.
[14:11] Theory Shaw: if you had a building video that you posted in world and have the new builder turn it on and off as they went through the steps… that would be key.
[14:11] KK Jewell: I would like to offer it to my readers..
[14:11] Christopher Prudhomme: I like the idea of having a choice of text, audio or video if posible.
[14:11] Mater Rhode: before any body can build in Sl thay need to learn the basics like the simple objects
[14:11] Scope Cleaver: As many vectors as possible.
[14:11] Chip Poutine: it might combine ‘offline’ and ‘online’ components
[14:12] Chip Poutine: ‘offline’ being how to get the account, and master the camera
[14:12] Chip Poutine: i’ve found actual in-world materials to be useful
[14:12] Chip Poutine: like the ivory tower of prims of course, as well as forseti’s ‘intermediate’ materials at idea city
[14:13] Fraser Fonda: its good to have it all in one place when I first learn’t to build I didn’t know how to use the camera contrrols and had lots of trouble trying to read tutorials mapped on walls 🙂
[14:13] Chip Poutine: break the tutorial down into a seris of ‘stations’
[14:13] Theory Shaw: i’m actually surprised there’s not a introductory video somewhere out there right now.
[14:13] Christopher Prudhomme: Chip, the Ivery tower is great, but I think there is far to much there. One thing that I have noticed is that most RL buildings can be modeled using just the cube
[14:13] Chip Poutine: it seems like the daunting challenge is just to compile all the existing stuff
[14:13] Chip Poutine: agreed – its overload 🙂
[14:14] Chip Poutine: in-world video that’s also accessible offline, but broken into chunks that can be created into spatially separated ‘stations’ might combine both
[14:14] Christopher Prudhomme: Theory, There are many tutorials out there, but non that did what I wanted, which was to get someone from no SL account, to building a simple building ASAP
[14:15] You: i think a living or dynamic community-created document or Wiki is probably best for a large portion of this, since it is a moving target. A big part of what architects want to know when they first come here is ‘what can be done, what can’t be done’, etc. –
[14:15] You: so, keeping tabs on the current status quo is a moving target
[14:15] Theory Shaw: gottcha ya
[14:15] You: the SL Foundations wiki is one such existing resource I think this could really dovetail with, if you agree
[14:15] Mater Rhode: At TUI I will be teaching a simple 16 prim building to beginners
[14:16] KK Jewell: When?
[14:16] Christopher Prudhomme: I agree with Key, but it would be nice if there was an easy way to mirror some of the content in world
[14:16] You: absolutely
[14:16] You: i think its a multi-dimensional thing, for sure
[14:16] You: ideally, tied to classes as well
[14:17] Christopher Prudhomme: It would be great to create materials that people could use to teach in-world lesson
[14:18] You: i like the stations idea – building on the things that work at Ivory
[14:18] You: and those stations could be the backdrop of the class – with the added advantage of a live teacher
[14:18] Christopher Prudhomme: I am interested to know what the barriers to entry are for people wanting to use SL as a modeling tool? what is stopping Architects from using SL?
[14:18] Chip Poutine: thanks very much!
[14:18] You: well, the biggest reason is not being able to import models
[14:18] KK Jewell: They use other software programs
[14:18] You: or, perhaps a bigger reason is lack of awareness that this place exists
[14:19] You: and, the scale issue is still a big one
[14:19] KK Jewell: No I have asked many architects they want to be able to convert what they use if they come in here
[14:19] You: yeah, that will always be the biggest barrier
[14:19] Christopher Prudhomme: so, scale and importing might be two good tutorials to start with
[14:19] KK Jewell: It is right now..
[14:19] Fraser Fonda: its the most common question I get too
[14:20] Mater Rhode: some of the shapes we creae here at my Rl office would require an expert to duplacate in SL
[14:20] You: so, I think its important to emphasize, when addressing architects, the things that make SL great for architects beyond just building models
[14:20] Mason Kingsford: there are also the rendering limitations to consider, such as lighting and no shadows
[14:20] You: yes, true Mason
[14:21] You: but having said that, there are definitely architects using SL successfully
[14:21] Christopher Prudhomme: Right
[14:21] You: the advantages outweight the limitations
[14:21] You: imo
[14:21] Scope Cleaver: *agrees*
[14:21] Chip Poutine: Agreed
[14:21] Mason Kingsford: I agree aslo
[14:21] Mason Kingsford: I agree aslo
[14:21] Mason Kingsford: also*
[14:21] You: and, i think we’re inside of 1 year from being able to bring those models in here fluidly
[14:22] Christopher Prudhomme: so the question is, how to we show new users how to take advantage of what SL can do well now
[14:22] Chip Poutine: it would seem the scale issues will exist in any 3d engine to some extent
[14:22] You: true Chip
[14:22] Christopher Prudhomme: but knowing that it is an issue is the first step
[14:22] KK Jewell: I have people coming to arcspace in SL every day and do not know where to send them for the basic tools
[14:22] Christopher Prudhomme: and how to deal with it
[14:22] Chip Poutine: plus we’re just looking at architects use SL to practice, there’s also the idea of using it to develop their business, recruit talent, etc.
[14:23] Mason Kingsford: true – the difference in Sl is that our cameras are attached to our Avies, but we don’t see from teh Avies POV normally
[14:23] You: back to Theory’s point – i’ve always felt that strong machinima helps outsiders see what is possible and build a desire to achieve the same experience once they’re in-world
[14:23] Chip Poutine: Key your youtube movies have been a *huge* advocacy tool 😀
[14:23] KK Jewell: Starting next month we are doing job recruiting
[14:23] You: plus, machinima has a long tail
[14:23] Theory Shaw: is the audience architects, or anyone that wants to build?
[14:24] You: well, I think the core issue for this discussion is RL architects
[14:24] KK Jewell: I think anyone
[14:24] You: there does need to be improved tutorials for everyone – no doubt
[14:24] You: but, the truth is, as Chrisopher pointed out – RL architectural replication requires a specific skill-set
[14:24] Fraser Fonda: when people ask me I send them to the Dreamssandbox its where I learnt to build its very popular so you see lots of different kinds of things being built and there is always someone to help
[14:24] You: and nobody is teaching that skill set very well yet
[14:24] KK Jewell: The answer get most of the tme is that they have no time to come to SL
[14:25] Toze Barbosa: the library of prims is also a good place to start
[14:25] You: true, it isn’t for everyone
[14:25] Toze Barbosa: i guess it’s also called “ivory tower”
[14:26] Theory Shaw: if SL was viewed like ‘outlook’ or Word,etc, as a crucial tool to collaborate with other, i think people ‘will’ find the time.
[14:26] Mater Rhode: I have only been on Rl for just ofer a month and I have already build some interesting things. I really think if somebody wanted to they could get up to speed very quicl=kly
[14:26] KK Jewell: Yes Theory
[14:26] You: one thing Christopher and I discussed yesterday is the possibility for building an orientation experience for architects and designers. I’m not sure if you’re all aware, but for newly registered accounts, they are now given a choice of orientation experience, based on their specific interests. There is currently no place for architects and engineers. I would love to see that experience developed here on Architecture Island, or as an adjacent island
[14:26] Christopher Prudhomme: Another way to start people of is to show them things SL can do that no other platform can
[14:26] Chip Poutine: I’ve thought about the same idea key
[14:27] Chip Poutine: the barrier to entry for architects and designers is in some ways the same as it is for everyone else
[14:27] Mason Kingsford: true – SL has distinct advantages that are really the key to it’s appeal
[14:27] Theory Shaw: if you could find a way to import 3rd party models in here… we wouldn’t even be having a conversation on how to bring architects in here.
[14:27] Chip Poutine: like the price of entry
[14:28] Theory Shaw: the platform would justify itself
[14:28] Toze Barbosa: I’m sorry to ask this, but I’ve heard about some tools that import from 3dstudio max or blender
[14:28] Mater Rhode: they main problem with second life is simple where do I find al there is to find here
[14:29] Christopher Prudhomme: There are way to import, but there is a fundumental problem with importing.
[14:29] Theory Shaw: any architect coming in here and trying to build, my self included, and has used other modeling programs before will be tremendously turned off by their usablity.
[14:29] Toze Barbosa: the process is said to be still in the beginning but already underway….
[14:29] Mason Kingsford: yes, but you can’t import textures and models get converted to prims
[14:29] Sofie Burton: if you ask me, i love the fact that you cant import external 3d data to SL. so just everybody has to use the same tools to build bad or great stuff.
[14:29] Christopher Prudhomme: most models are not build with prims but meshes
[14:29] Toze Barbosa: argh.. ok, didn’t know the actual problems
[14:29] Chip Poutine: …or tremendously turned on by their simplicity
[14:29] Mater Rhode: I thought I saw some tool to inport 3d data to SL
[14:30] Chip Poutine: sculpted prims represent the most broadly documented way now
[14:30] Christopher Prudhomme: I think the real task is to teach architects how to build efficent models in SL
[14:30] Christopher Prudhomme: they don’t have to be detailed to get the job done
[14:31] Toze Barbosa: when this meeting gets to the point of “first/important things to learn” I have my two cents
[14:31] Chip Poutine: right christopher, we’re leveraging the real-time, experiential nature of the space rather than the precision
[14:31] Christopher Prudhomme: But I think this is a problem because many people don’t want to learn new software
[14:31] Theory Shaw: eitherway… the programs that architects are used to using play by certain rules that architects have gotten used to over time… so when they come in here, they try to force that way of thinking into an entirely different way of building… and in turn get turned off by the process.
[14:31] Mason Kingsford: also – how to reach the architects before they even get in world?
[14:31] Mason Kingsford: also – how to reach the architects before they even get in world?
[14:31] KK Jewell: They are not going to switch from a detailed program to SL..that makes no sense at all
[14:31] KK Jewell: Why would thay?
[14:31] Mater Rhode: because SL is free tool
[14:31] You: i agree Christopher
[14:32] KK Jewell: But most offices have their own tools
[14:32] Theory Shaw: for sure… the tutorial should assuage them of their high expectations.
[14:32] Mater Rhode: how many offices have sketch-up
[14:33] You: they won’t use it to replace their detailed models KK – but they could use it to replace clay, cardboard or basswood study models
[14:33] Mason Kingsford: advantages of SL = build in real time rendering environment – able to colaborate with anyone from anywhere in real time – and is great for displaying work for real time walk throughs
[14:33] Toze Barbosa: yes, a study they can discuss with their clients and sponsors in-world
[14:33] You: its like inviting a client inside your mind in the schematic design phase
[14:33] Chip Poutine: right – part of the tutorial should be for the client experience
[14:34] KK Jewell: Yes possibly…But they print 3D models from their own programs..just saw taht again at the sgrada famaila workshop
[14:34] Chip Poutine: or to help the designer bring the client into sl
[14:34] Toze Barbosa: “they” indites I’m not an architect, off course
[14:34] Theory Shaw: , but their are programs out there that one can go from a loose way of working, to a very precis way of building.
[14:34] KK Jewell: They are already using very precise programs
[14:35] KK Jewell: Paperless like the 777
[14:35] Mason Kingsford: precision is a problem in SL for sure – and the grouping tools are non-existant for the most part
[14:35] You: there will always be the issue that one of the biggest advantages of SL is the collaborative process – and the only way that works is if users can create content real-time in the presence of others – that won’t lend itself well to 3D importing – just imagine, “hang on, i’ll be right back – *poof* – oh, i see what you did – hang on, i’ll be right back’ – *poof* – oh no, what i mean was – hang on, i’ll be right back
[14:36] Christopher Prudhomme: This is great, there are a lot of good ideas here.
[14:36] KK Jewell: I think what Arup is doing now is good..SL is a good place to take clients to see what you are doing…I do not see it as a tool for building in RL yet
[14:36] Christopher Prudhomme: • What is the first thing people should learn how to do in second life? Move? Camera? Build a using rectangles? Texture? There are some many tools use when building, what should we assume architects will already know if anything and what order should we teach things in. Also, there are many tutorial out there already. What is missing. i.e. how to import a blueprint. How to use prims efficiently.
[14:36] You: so, we’re back to the same place we seem to arrive at often – will CAD dovetail with SL first, or will SL become more like CAD first?
[14:37] KK Jewell: Exactly
[14:37] Toze Barbosa: i think that for colaboration issues, SL will get surpassed by the regular software
[14:38] Toze Barbosa: I mean, Office, CAD, Outlook, whatever, all that software will be 3D, real time and full online within corporations
[14:38] You: so, avatars will be in your CAD model before CAD models come to virtual communities?
[14:38] Christopher Prudhomme: Key, unless CAD programs start thinking in terms of prims, I think there will always be a divide
[14:38] Mason Kingsford: I think it’s important to show builders how to use snapping and grid – and defintely camera movement is so key since you can’t have multiple camera views at once and there is no gasp orthographic view – sigh
[14:38] Scope Cleaver: I really don’t miss orthographic views
[14:39] You: prims are an arbitrary invention to enable realtime streaming – I don’t think its outside of the realm of possibilities that meshes will be part of this platform in the future
[14:39] Mason Kingsford: I hope so Keystone
[14:39] Scope Cleaver: It has to be part of the metaverse at some point yes Key
[14:39] You: avatars and terrain are already meshes
[14:40] Scope Cleaver: Humm yes and no.
[14:40] You: right – sorta
[14:40] Scope Cleaver: It’s not really *mesh* inforamtion thats sent but yea.
[14:40] Christopher Prudhomme: I think there is a whole nother issue of how SL could better serve architects, but that should be left to another talk. for now I think we should try to stick to what SL can do well, and how to help architects using it for thoese things
[14:40] Chip Poutine: as far as the video card is concerned they’re all meshes…
[14:40] Scope Cleaver: But I think that the more the platform advances the more difficult it will be to convert everything into vertices
[14:40] Toze Barbosa: but SL, and other virtuals, will work as open platforms, outside the corporation…. don’t think it’s usufeull to think that SL can be used professional for building, designing, etc… but it will remain as a public meeting place…. so the arguments about the atractivity of SL, relies more on the showcase/workshop/portfolio/recruitment areas
[14:41] You: maybe we need to *de-emphasize using SL to build RL architectural projects for architects – as an integral part of this tutorial – that’s really what they need to learn first –
[14:41] Theory Shaw: SL is good for communicating a design to end users.
[14:41] Theory Shaw: …bringing the enduser further into understanding the design they will soon inhabit
[14:41] Mason Kingsford: it’s a great rough 3d sketch pad
[14:42] Theory Shaw: that, i think, is SL advantage right now for architects
[14:42] Scope Cleaver: Has anyone gone through this process from a to z I’d be interested in knowing about hat.
[14:42] You: right – so, lets teach architects as part of this tutorial how to think about SL as a community platform and 3D sketch-pad – and help them think of this more like a study model environment
[14:42] Toze Barbosa: what process a-z cleaver?
[14:42] Theory Shaw: yes keystone!
[14:42] Chip Poutine: yes keystone
[14:42] KK Jewell: Yes that is a good idea
[14:42] Chip Poutine: and “space planning”
[14:42] Theory Shaw: not building, but a feedback platform
[14:42] Scope Cleaver: Getting to design, approve, walk clients through on a project that eventually sees the light in RL.
[14:42] Chip Poutine: realizing the scale issues of course
[14:42] KK Jewell: Yes
[14:43] Theory Shaw: nah. 😉
[14:43] Toze Barbosa: i have my 2 cents about scale:
[14:43] KK Jewell: That is what Arup is starting to do now
[14:43] Toze Barbosa: scale is a twisted thing in SL
[14:43] Giancarlo Philbin: hello everybody
[14:43] Mason Kingsford: hellow Giancarlo
[14:43] Chip Poutine: agreed
[14:43] Toze Barbosa: alll the avatars are 2+ meter tall
[14:43] Fraser Fonda: Hi Giancarlo 🙂
[14:43] Chip Poutine: i realize the scale issues, yet i’m not really concerned with them either.
[14:43] You: Arup in SL KK?
[14:43] Giancarlo Philbin: hey fraser 🙂
[14:44] KK Jewell: You made it Giancarlo
[14:44] Toze Barbosa: and worst than that, a 5 meter tall door looks always roght
[14:44] Giancarlo Philbin: hey KK! i wouldn’t miss it! 🙂
[14:44] Toze Barbosa: and a 2,5 meter tall door seems just too short
[14:44] Chip Poutine: and a person can’t assume all avatars are antropromorphic
[14:44] Theory Shaw: what if the twin tower competiton proposals could be viewed spatial by anyone that came into SL…i’m doubting the public would have put up more of a stink as the design slowly got bastardized.
[14:44] Toze Barbosa: also, don’t try to walk your camera inside a 20sqm room, it just won’t work
[14:45] Theory Shaw: that’s an immediate advantage of this environment.
[14:45] Scope Cleaver: I am actually not too bothered by the scale issues.
[14:45] You: right community involvement is huge
[14:45] Chip Poutine: the ‘public consultation’ aspect of sl has been explored for the design of a park
[14:45] Toze Barbosa: so, building 1:1 scale, I don’t think it works, at least for houses and small/detailed building
[14:45] Chip Poutine: in rl
[14:45] Christopher Prudhomme: One of my interests is in how teachers and students could us SL in an Architecture studio. What if students could work on scale models in SL and then rez them to full size for critique.
[14:45] You: well, scale is an issue insofar as every single architect who attempt to build their project to true 1:1 scale with the in-world meter system is wasting their time
[14:46] You: they simply need to build it all 1.5x larger – which is as close as you can get
[14:46] Toze Barbosa: yes, that’s what why do….
[14:46] Scope Cleaver: Yes I agree Key, what I meant is I don’t complain when visiting a 1:1 build
[14:46] Scope Cleaver: I don’t mind lowering my head lol
[14:46] Giancarlo Philbin: lol
[14:46] Toze Barbosa: 1.5x in X and Y, and sometimes just 2x in Z, because height is the reall issue with the camera moving
[14:46] Theory Shaw: mouse view!
[14:47] You: well, in a 1:1 build – i’ve actually become physically nautious trying to move around inside it – almost like being car-sick
[14:47] Chip Poutine: like when using other fps engines
[14:47] Christopher Prudhomme: It should be easy to add a scale option to the SL cleint so people can build using real dimenssions but get a building that feels the right size
[14:47] Toze Barbosa: yes, car-sick, lol, that’s the feeling!!!
[14:48] Theory Shaw: nice… too many years in here key
[14:48] Scope Cleaver: I just hit CTRL 8 twice and am fine
[14:49] Theory Shaw: i think it would be nice to have a step by step video that was streamed in world that as it ran and showed you through screen captures how to interact with SL’s interface, there was a preprogrammed script that rezzed, in world, what the video was trying to explain.
[14:49] Theory Shaw: a little rerailed…
[14:49] You: back to Christopher – yes, using SL as a tool for a studio and architectural education has lots of potential
[14:49] You: so, there too – schematic design and study modelling –
[14:50] Scope Cleaver: Videos work great according to Torley too.
[14:50] Chip Poutine: agreed theory, the idea of being able to generate the objects via script is a unique advantage of having the tutorial in-world
[14:50] Chip Poutine: that, accompanied by video ‘stations’ that could also be viewed offline
[14:50] Chip Poutine: with prerequesite materials on how to utilize in-world video and the camera
[14:50] Scope Cleaver: There are those classes in a box available too which you can do at your own pace
[14:51] Theory Shaw: 1st video: a video off line to teach you how to watch a video inworld.
[14:51] Christopher Prudhomme: It seems like most of us agree on the advantages and challenges of SL. What do people think about creating a tutorial that addresses these issues
[14:51] Scope Cleaver: hehe
[14:51] Theory Shaw: 🙂
[14:51] Mason Kingsford: one advantage is scripting that can allow an architect to change textures with a click
[14:51] Toze Barbosa: theory, that was cool
[14:51] Chip Poutine: hehe yup
[14:51] Mason Kingsford: it’s cool for flooring, walls, windows, etc.
[14:52] KK Jewell: Why don’t I try publishing the video and see how many are interested? I reach millions of people.
[14:52] Christopher Prudhomme: What I have seen are: Scale, Importing, what about windows?
[14:52] Toze Barbosa: what about windows?
[14:53] Giancarlo Philbin: how do u cut holes to make windows
[14:53] Theory Shaw: a video explaining SL’s advantage for collaboration around any type of visual project is tantamount to get people to see the real world advantage of this platform.
[14:53] Giancarlo Philbin: the equivalent of booleans in any other modeling program
[14:53] Christopher Prudhomme: or how to use transperency effectively
[14:53] Toze Barbosa: cut holes? you mean hollow prims?
[14:53] Fraser Fonda: I remember asking that question 🙂
[14:53] Giancarlo Philbin: yes
[14:55] Christopher Prudhomme: Many people have used “Design your own home” type software and expect to be able to plop a window in anywere they want
[14:55] Toze Barbosa: I try not to use hollow for windows (hollow is hard to texture right and hard to align) i set smaller prims, side by, side, around the window, and try to save prim count by making those prims go through floors
[14:55] Christopher Prudhomme: I just want to do a time check and see where people are. Do we want to continue past 3 or wrap things up?
[14:56] Toze Barbosa: or, off course, the most important thing if you are building “buildings” , use the huge prim collection!
[14:56] Mason Kingsford: Toze – depending on where u build…
[14:57] You: even the specificity of building a ‘window’ seems like an advanced chapter or station – it seems like showing people how to use prims to study spacial and formal relationships, etc. would be best
[14:57] Toze Barbosa: yes, study space and materials, i do that with soldi big blocks, before i start defining the walls, and windows, etc…
[14:57] Toze Barbosa: *solid
[14:58] Mater Rhode: thhere is two methods of creating a window in SL using only one prin
[14:58] You: Welcome Duanede
[14:58] Chip Poutine: this does raise an interesting question though – utilizing textures to reduce prims
[14:58] Giancarlo Philbin: i think it would be useful to see a live demonstration of a building process. i have seen videos of collaborative building in SL and this is the reason i joined up
[14:58] Chip Poutine: its a common building practice but not a tectonic exploration
[14:58] Chip Poutine: in sl
[14:58] Theory Shaw: i think one thing to not loose sight of as well is that designing and building is not something that could or can be conveyed in a little tutorial… there’s something to be said about the years and years of education that architects go through to master the visual and tectonic skills necassry to build something….if bulding could be boiled down to an equation, i’ve wasted many years of my life.
[14:59] Chip Poutine: the answer is 42, btw.
[14:59] Theory Shaw: years?
[14:59] Mason Kingsford: haha lol
[14:59] Theory Shaw: 🙂
[14:59] You: or, 42K in tuition?
[14:59] Giancarlo Philbin: you could argue that architectural education and the profession is a little elitist in that sense…. given the right tools, i believe anyone can instinctively “make architecture”
[15:00] Toze Barbosa: 42 to ways to leave your lover, maybe
[15:00] Theory Shaw: but if were talking about a tutorial to make a generic house, i think that has a lot of merit to get people in here.
[15:00] Theory Shaw: if anything…give them a better idea on just what an architect does.
[15:00] Theory Shaw: but i digress…sorry
[15:01] Christopher Prudhomme: I am interested to know how many of you are trained as architects. I am not.
[15:01] KK Jewell: I am
[15:01] You: i am
[15:01] Chip Poutine waves
[15:01] Giancarlo Philbin: i am in my final year
[15:01] Duanede Melnik: i’m an architect
[15:01] Mason Kingsford: I have classes from the Uni under my belt, but it wasn’t my major
[15:02] Toze Barbosa: i think that nothing beats meeting people… you are talking about making a tutorial, video, etc… that’s very cool. but what people won’t forget about SL is meetings like this one. So planning, promoting and hosting live events, with workshops from the experienced SL architects, would be a better way (i think)
[15:02] KK Jewell: I agree
[15:02] Mason Kingsford: mmhmm
[15:02] Theory Shaw: word!
[15:02] Christopher Prudhomme: Toze, I agree
[15:02] Mason Kingsford: live events are key
[15:03] Chip Poutine: it certainly makes the point about collaboration
[15:03] Toze Barbosa: (I used to be a developer in PHP/MySQL, no architectural background whatsoever but lots of books around all the time)
[15:03] Chip Poutine: in a way that couldn’t be communicated any other way, really.
[15:03] Mason Kingsford: also, really good existing examples are key for interested architects, I think
[15:03] Giancarlo Philbin: absolutely… infact, it’s even more important since SL is lagging far behind many other processes which yield better results in terms of graphics and experience
[15:04] You: i agree – but when it comes to the nuts and bolts of learning – asynchronous methods like machinima can reach tens of thousands of people over the course of months/years
[15:04] Theory Shaw: ,but in all honesty Chris, if i was new to this platform and wanted to build… i wouldn’t want to command someone’s time to help explain it to me.
[15:04] Chip Poutine: exactly
[15:04] Christopher Prudhomme: Toze, I still think that it would be great for those same experienced SL architects to at least write down what are teaching
[15:04] Chip Poutine: key the two need to complement each other
[15:04] Toze Barbosa: agreed pduhome
[15:04] You: yes, we need both
[15:04] Chip Poutine: but does somebody viewing your collaborative building video without knowing SL really get the power of what’s going on in that video?
[15:05] Giancarlo Philbin: as i said, that is WHY i joined up
[15:05] Theory Shaw: good point chip..
[15:05] You: but – being realistic, if we’re talking about helping architects build RL schematics, etc. – how many people are really available to teach that? How many have actually done it?
[15:06] Theory Shaw: i sure liked and quicly understood SL’s benefite when i first saw Keystone’s videos, with avatars whipping around building stuff in real time.
[15:06] Toze Barbosa: keystone: making it easier….. as for tutorials i thnk there are plenty out there, maybe not oriented for architects, but great one, made by experienced SL builders. So a good starting point is to gather a collection of these landmarks, both tutorials and good examples
[15:06] You: that’s true Toze – that’s part of why Chip and I launched the SL Foundations wiki – to help bring those resources together –
[15:06] Mater Rhode: I am ready to teach I have been taking SL teaching classes and will be teaching at TUI island soon
[15:06] You: slfoundations.stikipad.com
[15:06] Chip Poutine: or http://www.slfoundations.org
[15:07] KK Jewell: I have more time now and would like to learn maybe I can try out your tutorials
[15:07] Chip Poutine: it concerns itself with building in general but the attempt has been to gear it to architecture in particular
[15:07] You: Mater, please let me know where/when – and I can point people to it from the group, and the blog
[15:07] KK Jewell: I amight be a good example as I am an architect
[15:08] KK Jewell: See if you can teach me
[15:08] Toze Barbosa: I’d love to share my two experiences so far: i made a replica of “dealey plaza dallas” and I’m building a corporate office park. First one is a challenge to create a 1:1 scale model of a real city plaza, second one is a challenge about making it as realistic as possible, but playing by the SL-avatar rules of scale and space usability
[15:08] Mater Rhode: of course
[15:08] Theory Shaw: i think cover on RL projects that use SL to garner design feedback from the community of endusers would attract a lot of architects in here as well.
[15:08] Christopher Prudhomme: Mater, can you post the time you are teaching to this group
[15:09] Theory Shaw: <coverage>
[15:09] Mater Rhode: I still have to get classes aproved But I can now tell them I have alot of interested students
[15:10] Giancarlo Philbin: i would be very interested too!
[15:10] You: having said all of this – I still think there is distinct value in completing and posting Christopher’s Google Doc that outlines a step-by-step process for new architects coming to SL – to start with. We can add machinima, in-world stations, and classes over time – but its a great place to start – I know I would have followed it line by line when I first started – there was so much to learn
[15:10] Mater Rhode: note card wi with lists of things you are interesting in learning
[15:10] You: the sooner we can get that published on SL Foundations, the better – perhaps a new page Chip? and attempt letting people add/revise? or would that not work? What do you think Chris/Chip?
[15:11] Christopher Prudhomme: Thanks Key
[15:11] Chip Poutine: agreed
[15:11] Chip Poutine: we could create a new page called ‘first steps’
[15:11] Theory Shaw: what about the ning.com forum/wiki?
[15:11] Chip Poutine: or something similar
[15:11] Christopher Prudhomme: I would love to see a page on slfoundations that outlines some of the ideas talked about hear with links to posible solutions
[15:11] Chip Poutine: and feature it on the homepage
[15:12] You: there’s already a transcripts page
[15:12] Chip Poutine: theory – does ning.com’s wiki support video embeds?
[15:12] Theory Shaw: i like that ning.com has a forum as well
[15:12] Chip Poutine: if it does that’d be the way to go.
[15:12] Chip Poutine: stikipad doesn’t support it as of the last time I checked
[15:12] You: i don’t think ning has a wiki
[15:13] Toze Barbosa: hum… isn’t any CMS ready for embeding a youtube video?
[15:13] Toze Barbosa: hum… not if it restricits HTML used inside pages, right?
[15:13] You: nope – no Wiki – i’m looking at it now – unless it isn’t obvious?
[15:13] Mater Rhode: if you really want to get more architect interested in Sl you might start a company that offers build services, and such
[15:14] Theory Shaw: idea format would include wiki and forum.
[15:14] You: yes
[15:14] Chip Poutine: exactly mater
[15:14] Theory Shaw: i’m sure there’s something out there like that
[15:14] Christopher Prudhomme: pbwiki can embed video
[15:14] Chip Poutine: the information might be ‘open source’
[15:15] Chip Poutine: with an associated network of professionals that can implement
[15:15] Toze Barbosa: mater: my company is just about bringing RL companies to SL.
[15:15] Toze Barbosa: I’m actually living out of SL projects now
[15:15] Giancarlo Philbin: how do you manage that?!
[15:16] Toze Barbosa: me? manage what? work 12 hours a day?
[15:16] You: i live off of SL too
[15:16] Giancarlo Philbin: i really didn’t think it was possible yet
[15:16] Toze Barbosa: lol…I’m still learning, and starting my promotion in RL Portugal
[15:16] Giancarlo Philbin: is there a large enough market to provide a living?
[15:17] You: Giancarlo, are you aware of Electric Sheep Company, Rivers Run Red, Millions of Us?
[15:17] Toze Barbosa: those are companies working for global corporations and brands
[15:17] You: yep
[15:17] You: many more earn a living within the community of SL
[15:17] Toze Barbosa: but i think if one works to create his one market in the local/regional scale, there is enough for making a living
[15:17] Giancarlo Philbin: i meant purely as an architect
[15:18] Toze Barbosa: ah, not as an “architect”, but an SL builder with some scripting skills also.
[15:18] Giancarlo Philbin: ah… i see
[15:18] You: I do
[15:18] Toze Barbosa: for RL corporations coming in to SL, architecture is just an aspect
[15:18] Giancarlo Philbin: therefore u are not limited to design
[15:19] You: all i do is build architecture in SL
[15:19] Toze Barbosa: no, not just design. This is a one man show right now, so I have to do everything…
[15:19] Toze Barbosa: that’s very nice to hear kestone!
[15:19] You: it hasn’t been easy, in the wake of the bad press hype during the last few months lol
[15:19] Toze Barbosa: *keystone
[15:19] Scope Cleaver: You have been for almost a year now Keystone
[15:19] Toze Barbosa: bad press is just press for me,…all press is good
[15:20] You: that’s not true Toze, unfortunately
[15:20] You: major policy decisions are being made as a result
[15:20] Giancarlo Philbin: did you build your clientbase in SL or RL keystone?
[15:20] You: it has set things back tremendously
[15:20] You: i started as a RL architect, and converted to an SL architect
[15:21] You: the clientbase mostly comes from RL at this point
[15:21] You have offered friendship to Mater Rhode
[15:21] You have offered friendship to Mason Kingsford
[15:21] Toze Barbosa: well, aren’t you just happy to learn about these new policies from Linden Labs?
[15:21] Toze Barbosa: I was thrilled to read the grid website just today.
[15:21] You: yes!
[15:21] Christopher Prudhomme: It seems that there are enough problems with SL for architects that there would be a market for an SL like environment design for Architectural collaboration, has anyone heard of such a thing?
[15:22] Toze Barbosa: even the SL brand, the naming, is wrong for business.
[15:22] You: well, just a small part of one
[15:23] Chip Poutine: christopher i think to a large extent you’re right, if you see the situation as a closed loop between architect and client
[15:24] Toze Barbosa: well, I’m targeting achitectural companies to come in to SL.
[15:24] Scope Cleaver: Toze did you work with the ejustice poeple?
[15:24] Toze Barbosa: I think they will see some value in having their portfolio displayed in 3D , not just in pictures on a website.
[15:25] KK Jewell: Most already work in 3D
[15:25] Toze Barbosa: scope: no.
[15:25] You: I think the community plays a big role though
[15:25] Giancarlo Philbin: if not the biggest role
[15:25] KK Jewell: I think the community is the important part
[15:26] You: so, if you build a walled garden for architects and clients only, the community is left out
[15:26] Chip Poutine: exactly kk – which is broader than the architect-client relationship
[15:26] KK Jewell: Yes
[15:26] Chip Poutine: its a whole new arena of architectural practice
[15:27] Toze Barbosa: I had some trouble trying to talk some young architect friends to learn SL, so I went the other way: trying to have wealthy, established, old architects to pay me…. it’s just a campaign under way, not ral profit yet.
[15:27] You: an ‘import community’ command inside of Revit
[15:27] Adiatha Bishop: Sorry; have to log for a bit. Thanks Christopher for the great discussion.
[15:27] Christopher Prudhomme: Well, folks. I have to run, but I would like to wrap up some things before I go.
[15:28] Toze Barbosa: huge prims!
[15:28] Christopher Prudhomme: I think this has been a great discussion
[15:29] Christopher Prudhomme: There are a lot of ideas here that I will try to outline and create a page on slfoundations
[15:29] Toze Barbosa: the “huge prim” issue is one the best issues to explore, but also problems with alpha textures. (and png files)
[15:30] Christopher Prudhomme: Are there any ideas that people want to add to that page that have not been touched on yet?
[15:30] Chip Poutine: looks like stikipad supports file attachements but haven’t found anything about video embeds yet.
[15:30] KK Jewell: ame
[15:30] Toze Barbosa: landmarks!
[15:31] You: there is a ‘Cool Builds’ page already Toze –
[15:31] You: you can add SLurls to it
[15:31] Toze Barbosa: oh yes, a good landmark section with the places where tutorials, classes, cool examples are
[15:31] Christopher Prudhomme: Keystone, have you tried pbwiki?
[15:31] You: i haven’t
[15:31] Chip Poutine: i chose stikipad for its looks, basically.
[15:31] Mason Kingsford: can u add pictures to your google doc page?
[15:32] Chip Poutine: but pbwiki was a close second.
[15:32] Toze Barbosa: your stikipad looks very cool, chip
[15:32] Scope Cleaver: Alright gotta jet, see you guys later, thanks for the discussion Christopher, Keystone.
[15:32] Christopher Prudhomme: I think so key
[15:32] You: thanks Scope!
[15:32] Chip Poutine: Thanks scope!
[15:32] Toze Barbosa: see ya scope
[15:32] Mater Rhode: ty scope
[15:32] Fraser Fonda: bye scope
[15:32] Mason Kingsford: bye scope
[15:33] Chip Poutine: Thanks toze – its your stikipad, too 😉
[15:33] Chip Poutine: that’s the point – Key and I encourage everbody to make use of it and contribute 😀
[15:33] Toze Barbosa: i missed the first part of this meeting, can you please re-type all your urls with a brief description?
[15:34] Giancarlo Philbin: i’m off too… KB and CP thanks for the enlightening discussion! look forward to the many more to come 🙂
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